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Topic 5: Once were hunters and gatherers-working with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander men

Outline

This topic discusses the following subjects:

Whilst these headings are not individually featured in the information about this topic, the transcript below from an interview between Ray McMinn and Andrew King covers details relating to the subject matter outlined above.

Read the following section and reflect on:

Ray McMinn being interviewed by Andrew King

Andrew: Could you introduce yourself?

Ray: My name is Ray McMinn, I am an Elder of the Mingaletta Aboriginal Community, based on the Woy Woy Peninsula, Central Coast. I am also an Elder of the Potory Minbee Aboriginal Elders and Seniors Association of the Central Coast. I work as the Aboriginal Community Liaison Officer for the Department of Education and Training.

Andrew: Which has always been a coastal community?

Ray: A group of us got together and decided to form a corporation as we have a rather large Aboriginal community on the Woy Woy Peninsula. Over three hundred Aboriginal students in the six cluster schools, a community that is not transient and have made their home the Woy Woy Peninsular. Aboriginal people from different countries i.e. Dharug, Awabakal, Wiradjuri, Wadiwadi and Bundjalung, just to name a few. We have been going for five or six years so far and gaining strength and recognition each year. Mingaletta is a Guringgai word for coming together or meeting place, and that’s what we do. Our main focus is housing, health and education.

Andrew: Wonderful. This section is going to be called ‘Once were hunters and gatherers’— working with Indigenous men. What does that title mean to you?

Ray: Prior to colonisation Aboriginal people were hunters and gatherers. After colonisation that identity was gradually eroded over the years. Now it has completely gone with urban Aboriginal people, and yet it is still part of their nature, it is in their blood. There is a sense of hopelessness, lostness and lack of self-esteem. Not as much with remote communities who still live traditionally but even then the Aboriginal people have their own unique problems in those communities. But they still do a certain amount of hunting and gathering, but again it is slowly diminishing.

With this identity being lost, their self-esteem is damaged. When working with men, the main thing you need to do is to build up that self-esteem, get that sense of hunting and gathering back within them, which today means earning a wage, providing for their family and caring for their family. That’s what’s been lost, and that’s why we’re in so much trouble today.

And you’ll find that in every Aboriginal community that you go into, the leaders are women, they are the outspoken people. The Aboriginal men sit back and do not project themselves very well. It is now slowly starting to change; there is a new excitement and expectation through the work of people within other organisations that are working with men. The men are starting to help get back their self-esteem, sense of belonging and sense of pride. Slowly it’s working.

Andrew: What difference does it make for the men as they redefine that identity and revalidate that role of being hunters and gatherers? What difference does it make in the men’s lives?

Ray: Well it gives them a sense of pride. You know, even when you have worked in prisons and things like that you see the change in the young fellas. It gives them a sense of pride, a sense of self worth, a sense of self-esteem and they just... you see the change. They want to get out there and do things. And so I think it’s essential, or it’s paramount to any Aboriginal men’s training to instil that hunting and gathering regime back within them. And once you start doing that, you’ll find it a lot easier to get them back to where they used to be.

Andrew: You mentioned before that the new leadership in the communities is women focussed and how that’s highly valued. As the self-esteem of blokes come back, as they revalue that role of hunting and gathering in their own leadership abilities, how does that coexist, with the female leadership?

Ray: It’s like the white society. We had the women’s revolution which is a great thing. But the men need to rebuild their own confidence in who they are. This is not only true for Aboriginal men, but also for white society males who are also losing their identity. In Aboriginal society that’s how it was. Males and females were on equal footing. Women were respected and revered. Now, what’s happened is the females, out of necessity, are taking leadership roles because the males have previously lost their identity. Well, it’s not that simple, but that’s how I look at it.

Now, you’ll find that when you go into Aboriginal communities the males are starting to regain, not control, their self-respect and self-esteem. That’s the ones we work with, so you’ll find that the women by their own choice, are getting back to be nurturers and carers for their families, and the males are starting to get back to hunting and gathering. Everything should be in equal partnership.

Andrew: To support this change for men, what is the message non-Aboriginal workers need to do when working with Aboriginal men?

Ray: If you’re working with Indigenous people it is best to use Aboriginal men as tutors and teachers. Because for far too long, what’s happened has been controlled and delivered by white people governments. For too long the message has been from white society to Aboriginal people, is what we are going to do for you. It does not work. It’s got to be reversed. School principals come to me and say ‘Ray, we’re trying to get into a community, how do we do it?’ I say, they need to start by approaching the elders.

But don’t go in and say ‘This is what we’re going to do’. Always reverse it and say ‘What can we do for you’? That’s how it works. And that way you’ll get the respect of the community and the respect of the Elders. They will work with you and eventually you’ll get them coming back into the schools.

It is the same for men in an Aboriginal community. You go into the community and don’t say that ‘This is what we’re going to do’, but if you do it the reverse, and say ‘What can we do for you? How can we help you make your decisions for what you want to do for your people, for your family?’ With that approach you win hands down every time. The other way, it doesn’t work. We know that!

Andrew: When this approach is adopted, what are some of those examples of cross cultural partnerships that have you witnessed in your own work?

Ray: Well, this way of working alongside the community is not unique to Aboriginal communities. There’s no reason on earth why the same approach can’t be used with all cultures. White, Chinese or Japanese cultures, the same approach will work. Our society falls short all the time, we don’t look at it the other way, we always look at it from our point of view, ‘we will help you’. We avoid asking the question, ‘How can we help you and what do you need from us?’ That’s the way to approach it.

Dealing with parents, the dreamtime stories or Hey Dad, or another parenting program you’ve put in place. The thing in society today is that the family unit is breaking down, we know that. The reason it is breaking down– this is my opinion – is that we weren’t handed down the skills our parents had. They might have been disciplinarians, or whatever, but the skills handed down from generation to generation on how to raise families and how to deal with communities – because parents haven’t been handed the skills to use for raising their children, we now have a big problem. But if you go out and give the parents the skills, help them to get the skills then we will improve the community. Otherwise we are in a big mess, until such time as we begin to get this sorted out.

Andrew: Coming back to the skills in a moment. Sometimes people say it is hard for female workers to work with Aboriginal men. What is your perspective on that?

Ray: I’ve seen some fantastic female workers working with men. I think the Hey Dad launch at Tamworth was proof in the pudding. Aboriginal men need to also hear from a female perspective how to recreate this equal partnership. The female leaders will respect the delivery of these courses. The female leaders I have observed work fantastically. I think it will be better in the long run, when Aboriginal men take up the group leader roles but initially it is the women who have taken these roles and they do a fantastic job.

Andrew: What are the most important things that female workers need to do when engaging Aboriginal men?

Ray: Equality and respect. I think they’re the two main factors if you’re a female worker with an Aboriginal male. Come from a level footing, and value the role the men play in society or what they should play. I have seen some social workers that adopt the attitude of ‘what I do for you’, not the other way around which I spoke about before. Then they become overbearing and overpowering, and forget that these men have lost their role, they have lost their identity.

That goes for female Aboriginal women as well, there’s no two ways about it. Many of them integrated a lot better than the men because they were usually married to white men. They integrated far better. Whereas, the males – for who it was against the law to even go near a white female in the old days, and even now that’s still frowned upon to a certain degree – the men need to be reminded of their tenderness and nurturing, as is their nature. That is what women were born for, to be nurturers and carers and you know, with Christ and Mary Magdalene. He knelt below her, and he was probably the first female liberationist if you like, if you want to go down that path, because he was kneeling at the feet before Mary Magdalene which wasn’t heard of in those days for a male to be below a female.

Andrew: You were talking about the importance of parents in re-validating that set of skills they use in caring for their family. When working with Aboriginal men, what good practice skills are used? You mentioned equality, level footing is a key thing, and validating that lost role.

Ray: Well I can tell you one thing is. Be straight as a gun barrel because they will pick it up if you are not. And I – this goes for anyone – you’ve always got to speak from your heart. Use your heart and experience. If you don’t you’re lost. They’ll see through you, and they’ll say ‘There’s another knowit- all trying to tell us what’s good for us’. So you’ve got to be fair dinkum. If you’re not fair dinkum you might as well give the game away, as far as I’m concerned.

As far as the skills go, this goes for all society. Within an Aboriginal community, or any community, it takes a whole village to raise a child. You probably have heard that before. Well it’s true. Because once the child is born, they are virtually handed over to his aunties and uncles, and they have got several of them. They have several mothers and several fathers and the child’s education begins at birth. We are in danger of losing that extended family. Some cultures have still got it, but it is a dying thing. Say I’m in court, and an Aboriginal boy is accompanied by his aunty and uncle. The magistrate will frown upon it. He will say ‘Where’s the kid’s mother and father?’ What they don’t understand is that the mum and dad are usually too close to the situation to speak effectively from their own experience. Whereby the aunty and uncle are often who the boy or girl will listen to, mum and dad are the enemy at the moment. So, the aunt or uncle will accompany the child, as they are removed from the situation to a certain degree. They’re able to see it more clearly than the immediate mother and father. That’s the sort of thing we’ve got to get back to.

Where we’ve got a community like Mingaletta, if you’ve got a child that’s in trouble, at a school, you get the community behind it and they’ll help sort it out. Where I saw a kid the other day, he’s in strife, but there’s no Aboriginal community to assist him, or mum and dad to help them out. So it’s left to mum or dad, but mum or dad are too close to the situation. It becomes very emotional especially in single parent families, and the kid regards them as the enemy. That’s when the extended family comes into play. Usually the boy or girl has more respect for his aunt and uncle and will listen to them more readily than he would for his mother or father because he lives with mum or dad all the time.

Andrew: Working with the social system around the kids is a vital part of those skills. Are there any other important skills for workers to use to work effectively with Aboriginal men?

Ray: Well I believe we’ve got to set goals and aims for any community, we’ve got to raise the bar for Aboriginal males. Don’t say, this is what happened, this is how it has always been. We’ve got to raise the bar to say ‘This is what I want from this and what do you want for yourself’.

Andrew: You used the word community in that. Is that an important thing for workers to be aware of, when to work with the individual man, and when to work with a larger community group?

Ray: You need to start within the community. Say you’re in Taree (a small regional town in New South Wales) and you approach the community to get the men to come to the course. I think you’ll find the Child Protection Agency dictated that they need to go and attend a parenting course, but the men are only going to be there because they’ve got to be. The best way obviously is to volunteer to get them there on they’re own, so they want to be there.

It takes an exceptional trainer, and it can be done, to be able to draw them out, so they actually want to stay there and be there and stay within the course. And again the way to do that is to approach them on their level, and their footing, say ‘What do you want and how can I help you achieve what you want in your life?’ It’s imperative that they approach it on a level footing all the time, and that they are true and fair dinkum not instructed just read a book. The leader has to sit in and be a part of that group, be one of the group.

If you’re doing the training yourself, that’s how you learn the most, and best relax. That’s how I approach it when talking with men. I put myself in their situation – I’ve been there, I know what it’s like, you know – and that’s how other workers have to approach this sort of situation, especially with Aboriginal men.

Andrew: If you are new to an area and want to build the relationship with an Aboriginal community, where would you first start? Do you go to see the Elders or start with the local Land Council or the Indigenous Health Service?

Ray: It’s all of the above. But before you even go into a community – like if you are going into Dubbo – you find out the country. You do some homework, and find out what country you’re in. Say it’s Wiradjuri, or if you’re going to the Central Coast, it is Darkinjung. So, actually know the land and the country you are going into before you approach anyone. And once you’ve done that then you approach the Elders, or the Land Council, or the Aboriginal Medical Service. You ask permission to go onto that land, you always say ‘Is it ok if I come onto Darkinjung?’ or acknowledge that you are in Darkinjung country, or you are in Wiradjuri country. It is just a mark of respect, and they appreciate that, believe me, they really appreciate that.

This outsider has come into your country, he has asked permission to enter, and he acknowledges that he knows this is your country, which is a big thing. Even though the person you might approach – she might be from another country – she’s living in that place, the same as Mingalletta, that’s Guringgai territory. But these people have met and gathered, given birth to the children so the children realistically, historically they might be Dharug descendant, but they’re born in Guringgai territory, so they take on that identity of that country they are in, but historically they are from...wherever. You know, where their families are from. It is a big, big thing to, to find out who the Elders are in the community, they’ll let you know and then approach them and seek permission. They will pass this respect onto others, otherwise you’re bashing your head against a brick wall, and you’ll never get in unless you do show that mark of respect.

Some people say that there are not many real Aboriginals around these days. Even with urban Aboriginals, they still follow and are trying to get back their own cultural base. And by doing that you show that you are on the same page as they are and you respect their country and the land.

Andrew: In our fast-paced society, will that sign of respect be passed on?

Ray: Yep, without a doubt. I can give you an example. At Christmas time the family and I went away camping to Saltwater Nature Reserve. I was invited to go there as an elder from my community. Before I went to Salt Water, I went to see the local Elders and introduced myself even though they knew me anyway. I introduced myself and said ‘Can I seek permission to come up on your land, I’m a Dharug descendent, and I’m an elder of Mingaletta Aboriginal Community?’ Permission was granted and it was like open house. Anything that I wanted on that land, I was able to do because I paid the respect to start with. You know, I didn’t have to, just out of respect I did.

My kids do the same thing too. If at university or whatever, they always acknowledge the country and always talk to the Elders and people like that before they go on the land. It’s growing, it’s tradition, and it’s coming back. And I think the Sorry Day was one of the biggest things ever, I’ve had four historical Aboriginal events in my life.

One was being born Aboriginal in Redfern in 1944, and my father was in New Guinea, in the army. My mother was an Aboriginal woman, my father was white. When I was born, they went underground, and in those days aboriginality was never mentioned, even though we knew. In 1960 a kind magistrate put me in the Navy and then in 1967 I was serving in submarines in the UK and word came through about the results of the referendum. I could actually say to everyone, which they already knew anyway, that I was Aboriginal, because prior to that there were no Aboriginals in the services, especially not in the Navy. So ‘67 was the referendum, that’s when I announced, I could come out of the closet, so to speak. The next big event was the 2000 Reconciliation March across Sydney Harbour Bridge. This in my mind was the day which Australia said sorry to Aboriginal people, the larger society said sorry. The next event was obviously the Sorry Day Apology in Canberra which I was present at. So those four days are probably the most significant days in my life as being Aboriginal.

Now, if you can, if you can imagine, the Stolen Generation, these are the people we are talking to. Males, who didn’t know who their mothers were, who have lost a great chunk of their life. They don’t know where they’re from. They don’t know who their fathers and mothers were half the time, they are just wandering around aimlessly. And this is why we’ve got to get to them and rebuild stability in their lives. The only way to do this is to reach out and talk to them about their culture and their country. Find out where they are and who they are. You need to do your own homework before you go in there and find out where they are from and the country you are in.

Andrew: I have here in front of me a copy of Hey Dad for Indigenous Dad’s, Uncles and Pops. I know you were part of that program and its development. What does the Hey Dad program mean for you?

Ray: Oh, I think it’s an excellent tool. A very, very well thought out, well planned tool for reaching out to our men. It probably needs a more cultural aspect to it, but I think any facilitator can incorporate their own stuff. The inclusion of Dreamtime stories which are relevant to raising families, is powerful.

Andrew: I imagine a key part of the next few years is training more Aboriginal men to be facilitators. What skills or support do Aboriginal men need to facilitate this program?

Ray: Well you know what? Organisations have a great opportunity to train young Indigenous facilitators who may at present be in juvenile justice. There are many young men, soon to be released in five or six week’s time – they usually have children as well – they can be trained to be facilitators for the Hey Dad program, and then they go back to their community with a new way to contribute. That young man can be attached to a local organisation. You have a trained facilitator based in a high Aboriginal population – they are working, so employment – they are able to help his own community with training programs. He has a renewed self respect, self-esteem and even with a prison record, he’s able to go into his community as a trained facilitator. You couldn’t wish for anything better. As long as you keep the fire burning and not to let the old ways creep back in, by constant monitoring and upgrades.

Andrew: What are the qualities or characteristics you would look for within those young men in making that selection process of who to train?

Ray: Their education is probably not so crash hot – they have usually dropped out of school at 15, or whatever. But they really don’t need that, they just need the skills. And most Aboriginal men, once you get them going, they are great talkers, they are great Dreamtime storytellers. And that’s what their heritage is, and they are able to communicate especially with their own community. So you know, you’re looking at personality.

An example is Uncle Max who is an Elder. I was with him the other day–he was sitting in the room quietly in his European clothes and being very demure and shy. However, when he changes into his traditional Naga and paint, his whole personality changes. He just comes right out. It’s extraordinary.

And you’ll find that with most Aboriginals. If you take a young bloke, they are shy, quiet and reserved. But if you give them the skills and the training to be a facilitator, you’ll find they will come out. Because they’ve got a goal, an aim, and they have got something they can actually be proud of.

I’ve seen this happen. Tamworth was a good example. You have got a group of men–they were shy, they really were not going anywhere at the time, however, you get a couple of leaders and train them with the Hey Dad program and watch them blossom. They come out of their shells and they’re doing a good job. It is satisfying to see that growth.

Andrew: How important are those Dreamtime stories in terms of reclaiming the traditional or new roles, of what it means to be a hunter, gatherer, provider, protector?

Ray: I have presented the Sharing the Dream program to my regional bosses and teachers. The program involves listening to Dreamtime stories and the participants then identify the content of the story – respect for self, respect for elders, respect for children and respect for family. All these different moral codes and things that we are supposed to live by are in the story. It’s all contained in a Dreamtime story. So I’d defy anyone to take a look at a Dreamtime story – I don’t care if it is Tidalik the Frog, or whatever – you’ll find morals, respect, self-esteem, health and well-being in the story. That relates to how we live our lives in those stories. With Dreamtime stories, it’s imperative, especially with Aboriginal people, that they hear those stories and we start handing it down again. Because within those stories is the code of conduct for moral living or living your life.

Andrew: Is there a Dreamtime story that comes to mind as one that speaks to you about the current context which men face, and that challenge which is before them?

Ray: The story of The Nurunderi (hunters) and the Koolyangarra (children).

Seldom were aged animals hunted, unless game was very scarce. Yet when confused old animals wandered into camp, they were often teased by Koolyangarra. These children pretended they were Mundurras, or hunters, tormenting the old animals with blunted toy spears.

One day, an aged Mari, a wallaby, entered the Banya and began to graze. The Koolyangarra quickly gave chase, but the Mari nimbly avoided the blunted spears, in spite of his age, he even jumped over the heads of the Koolyangarra, till the children grew angry.

‘Keep still,’ they shouted. ‘We cannot kill you if you jump about so.’

The Mari stopped and faced them.

‘Why do you want to kill me?’ said the Koolyangarra.

‘To avoid being killed,’ said the Mari.

‘But you are a Mari, and Mari’s don’t speak,’ said the Koolyangarra.

‘Is that so?’ said the Mari.

Then, to the children’s astonishment, the Mari turned into one of the spirit people. Finally the sprit spoke.

‘I am Nurunderi, a spirit teacher, sent by the great spirit, Baimi. I come to teach you respect.

‘How often have I seen you tease old animals, and how that displeases me. You should hunt only for food, never for fun. All creatures deserve dignity, because each has a purpose, even if that purpose is beyond the understanding of children. Above all, age should be respected, because with age there is wisdom, which is passed on to the young.’

‘We do respect the elders’ said Wilyango, (or boy). ‘But what can we learn from an old animal?’

‘Were you able to catch the Mari?’ asked the Nurunderi, ‘or kill it?’

The boy shuffled and looked at his feet, feeling very foolish.

‘You see.’ said the Nurunderi, ‘age and experience teaches much.’ He paused for some time, then he added. ‘Only if you remember these things can each of you become good Mundurras, and if you do then your people will never go hungry.’

The Koolyangarra looked at each other for only a moment, yet when they looked back, the Nurunderi had vanished.

This is one of many Dreamtime stories that can be used and you can see the moral message it contains. The story is not just for children, I have used it for adults to dissect and discuss the content and how it can be related to parenting today.

Andrew: Thanks Ray for sharing a rich story with many insights into working with Aboriginal men.

Reflection on facilitating group work programs with men who are Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander

In the Hey Dad program, they recommend the following things for facilitators to do when they have Aboriginal men in the group. Most importantly, always use an Aboriginal co-facilitator.

Other important things are:

Setting up the space

Being upfront

Being relaxed and open

Accept the level of anxiety the group members may experience

Use throw words instead of brainstorming

For some Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander men, the term ‘brainstorming’ can be intimidating. This may be due to negative experiences with educational institutions in the past or simply a lack of confidence in their own brainpower. To encourage increased participation in the group work exercises the term ‘throw words’ has been used to replace brainstorming. For example, if the theme was emotions, you could say:

‘In this session we are talking about emotions. I just want you all to throw words at me and I’ll write them on the board. What are all the emotions that we can name?’

Yarning the issues

Yarning has always been the way that Aboriginal people support each other in times of problems. It is talking and understanding each other.

Fathers might come to a group because they currently have a need to participate more positively in their children’s lives or may have particular child-related issues to resolve. Other issues might surface during the program as they try to put ideas into practice. While we anticipate that the group will give them the skills to address these problems, there is rarely a quick solution. However, it is still important to address urgent issues, and to help fathers, uncles and grandfathers to become more skilled in dealing with problems through yarning.

For this reason a segment called ‘ great spirit, the issues’ is used. In this section, the men may present practical problems for open group discussion. It is suggested that the time devoted to this section be set when the segment is introduced, and that this time limit be adhered to, otherwise ‘pressing issues’ can dominate every session.

Explain the idea of ‘yarning the issues’ to the group in the first session. You can use a made up issue to practice.

  1. At the start of each week ask the group if there are any ‘yarning issues’ they would like to bring to the group. Alternatively, have a box of paper and pens at the back of the room where group members can write down their pressing issues. This way the person who ‘owns’ the issue can stay anonymous.
  2. Write the issue on the whiteboard (or butcher’s paper) reading it out to the group. If it is an issue that will be addressed during the session, ask the group for permission to discuss it in the session rather than in yarning issues.
  3. Go around the circle asking members to offer a suggestion to the issue. All suggestions are written briefly on the board, pictographs are acceptable.
  4. It is often helpful to copy down the problem and suggested solutions, then photocopy them and distribute them to participants. This can become a useful resource for the group.

IconIf you are interested in being trained as a Hey Dad program facilitator or implementing the Hey Dad program in their communities, contact Centacare Broken Bay on 02 94882400 or email hey.dad@brokenbay.catholic.org.au

Find out the relevant country for your local area. Then approach the local Elders, Land Council and the Aboriginal Medical Service for permission to go onto that land. This is a mark of respect.

Ask them ‘What can I do for you?’ Use as many empowerment-based strategies as possible.

Spend time in building your relationship with the community by attending local events.

Find as many ways that you can include and work alongside Aboriginal workers and members of the community.

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Topic 6: Working with men in different contexts

Topic 4: Working with men and culture